My Dad used to have a saying, “An Injury to One is an Injury to All.”
Sometimes you just have to stand up for what you believe.
Anyone who knows me or reads this blog probably knows that I stay far, far away from any seduction community gossip or drama, but this one really touched me. I’ve never heard anything like it before….EVER…and so I’m going to pass it on to you.
Part of the reason why this touched me so much is that the student from the incident is from my 30/30 Club. I feel a personal connection with all the members of the 30/30 Club, and it was very upsetting to hear about this incident.
So let me give you a quick summary and then I’ll include the 30/30 member’s report.
This story first surfaced on the 30/30 Forum on 7/25/10, and I’ve been waiting for the student to give me the OK for posting this.
Let’s start with the people involved:
ForeverDrake- This is a student who is trying to learn seduction. He is a 30/30 member, he has taken a few trainings with various coaches, and he has attended some seduction conferences.
Psych- Psych is a small time, virtually unknown pickup instructor. He is listed as a coach for a company called PUAtraining here- http://www.puatraining.com/trainers/view/18
Apparently he also does some work independently without association with PUAtraining. I can’t be sure what their association is, but if Psych or anyone at PUAtraining would like to clarify, I will leave the comments open.
As of this writing, he seems to be listed on their site as an active coach who is currently taking new students via PUAtraining.com.
Nathan PUA- This is a guy who is a business partner of Psych and sells his workshops. Nathan also runs many lair events in New York City, which can be seen at the following website- http://www.meetup.com/AFCtoPUA/messages/boards/thread/9491927/
Heartwork- Another virtually unknown assistant instructor. Listed as working for Vin DiCarlo according to several trustworthy sites. Also seems to be working independently. Again, I will leave the comments open if Vin or anyone else cares to clarify.
He has a blog, but it seems to be shut down right now.
Allegedly, ForeverDrake took a training with Psyche and Heartwork, was dissatisfied due to coaches ignoring him and getting drunk, was refused a refund, and then when he told his friends to avoid training with these guys, Nathan PUA grabbed him forcefully by the neck at a conference and told him that if he doesn’t stop talking, he will be sued for slander. There were witnesses to this incident, since it took place at “The Under 21 Conference.”
*Note- To be fair, ForeverDrake did not ask for his refund until months and months later. You really aren’t entitled to a refund if you wait that long.
In subsequent emails in the last few days, Psych continues to characterize Nathan as and angry guy with too much money who likes to sue people. Seems like a understated threat.
ForeverDrake is concerned about being sued, but I encouraged him to share his story with the community, since it will help other students stay away from shady instructors.
Is all of this true? Well, I wasn’t there, so I’m going to call it “allegedly” just like the 6 o’clock news would.
However, in my dealings with ForeverDrake on the 30/30 forum, he’s always seemed like a pretty straight up dude, so I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt myself, and you can draw your own conclusions.
What’s my opinion?
It’s just plain wrong to threaten to sue a student and to be grabbing him by the neck. That’s not what this community is about. ForeverDrake has the right to tell anyone he wants that he thought the training was crappy and that they shouldn’t take it. He also has the right to post negative reviews of this training wherever he wants without having to worry about being sued. Who knows how many other students these guys have used intimidation tactics on? Intimidation tactics like this are always unacceptable.
It’s not organized crime, and it’s not worth threatening, assaulting, and suing people. We’re just trying to help some guys get laid!
I’ve been doing this since 2005, and I’ve never heard anything like this. I’ve never heard of anyone giving a training as awful as this, and I’ve never heard of anyone threatening to sue a student and grabbing him by the neck.
After meeting lots of guy in the seduction business, my opinion is the majority of them are really good people who truly want to help others. This community is full of highly skilled self-help masters who really care about the students.
But when bad apples like these guys do things like this, they’re an embaressment to the entire community.
My suggestion would be for Psych, Heartwork, and Nathan to get out of the business immediately and try something else for a while. Even if not every small detail of this story is accurate, there’s plenty of witnesses who saw Nathan grab ForeverDrake by the neck and threaten to sue him.
There’s no one in their right mind who will want to study with these guys, even at cheap prices, especially after hearing about their high pressure sales pitches.
My suggestion for ForeverDrake would be to post his review, and then put this behind him and get back to focusing on his learning process ASAP. We are still working on his game in the 30/30 Club, and there’s important skill building to be done.
Also, it’s not a good gamble to study with unknown coaches who charge $200. Sometimes it can become a case of “you get what you pay for.” These coaches seem pretty desperate the way they’re selling people, with all this “Let’s take a walk to the ATM” stuff.
There’s no need for anyone to be suing or threatening to sue in this situation.
Furthermore, on the off chance that Nathan really is an “angry rich guy” and really does sue ForeverDrake (unlikely), I will spearhead a charity drive for his legal defense. It will reach every corner of the community and we will get donations from far and wide. I will ask all my students, all my dating guru friends, and all my personal friends for donations, and we will make sure that this kind of threatening can no longer go on in our community.
I am friends with David DeAngelo, Neil Strauss, Nick Savoy, Sinn, Thundercat, lots of Love Systems instructors, Tyler, a few RSD instructors, Cliff, Speer, Formhandle, and lots of others, and I can tell you that they are really good people and there’s a decent chance they will want to help.
Someone has to stand up for the little guy, and in this case, it’s going to be me.
OK, now I’ll let you read the review, in it’s entirely.
The following review was written by ForeverDrake:
Part 1. The incident that began last year.
This started about a year ago, I bought 2 nights of bootcamp for a discounted price of $200 (so that would basically be $100 a night), I talked to the other 2 students that night, they paid the exact same price as me. We headed out to a bar to do some game, work on some sticking points, it was a fun night out in general. My instructors were Heartwork and Psych, it was not an official bootcamp but an under the tables bootcamp.
This was initially Heartwork’s bootcamp, however, after wards when I confronted him last week he said it was Psych’s bootcamp, which I clearly remember it not being, I will get into more detail on this in part 2. Heartwork also promised to help me sort through my goals and help me set them up, this would take roughly 20 minutes and we had never got to. Also I did watch him do this for another of his students do this that night.
Psych was cool to me and helped me out. I have vague memories of him drinking that night but he said he wasn’t and never has on a bootcamp before, so I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt, I have not heard him lie to me before as far as I can remember. Heartwork however, I cannot say the same for. Heartwork too, however from my recollection of the experience he was pretty drunk and several other people commented the same thing on this.
I did end up losing Heartwork throughout the night, and at certain points in the night I had actually lost both instructors, that’s pretty hard for a 3 student to 2 instructors ratio. Both of the other 2 students on the bootcamp pulled early in the night. I had saved Heartwork’s number on my phone and called him and texted him a few times in the night to find him, he didn’t pick up my phone calls, that is understandable, it is a pretty loud club. He did however, text me back and ask “Whos this?”
I figure when you are about to take a student to game you that you would at least save their number. Or at least NOT drink on a bootcamp, especially if you’re an instructor who is not even the legal drinking age of 21. Heartwork says he was not drunk but had just one or two beers, I remember it being more but hey, I lost him a good amount of the night so it’s not like I can count every drink he had.
It was then that Heartwork promised me a bunch of material that he was going to send me for free, PLUS the 2 nights of the bootcamp. I was super happy that night and I hugged him, it was a cool experience in my eyes, it was also my first bootcamp so I decided to simply disregard the negative parts of the bootcamp.
After the whole bootcamp I e-mailed and texted Heartwork a few times, he did after all promise me a bunch of free products, I did not want to pester him so I did not do it too much, however, a majority of my e-mails and texts were ignored or simply avoided with a short “I’m busy” or something then followed by usually something such as, “I’m going to send you the products soon.” Which he didn’t, I ended up having to send him about 20 more e-mails before he ever sent me the products. I had to pester him and bother him before he sent me the products.
So about a week ago, I confronted him about the less than satisfactory services provided. I asked for a refund for the night that I did not go out. Heartwork gave me a weird response that I do not remember, he was surprised, then he said it was mainly Psych’s bootcamp, and that he was helping out on it, I remember it being his bootcamp and Psych helping out but whatever. We spoke briefly.
He also mentioned the other 2 students being the reason why I lost him throughout the night, that’s weird… To have 2 instructors and 3 students, and somehow lose 1 for a good amount of the night, wouldn’t you say that is strange? He then mentions to me that the price of the bootcamp was way too cheap and other instructors were mad at him and he got in trouble for it. Strange.
Then he says the other 2 students paid the full price of the bootcamp, which was thousands of dollars. I immediately caught on to this and parroted his statement back as a question, “They paid thousands of dollars for the bootcamp?” He then immediately changed his story, “Well… no… they paid about…. Um…. $700.” This is almost 3 times the actual amount each of them paid. I asked him “Each of them paid $700 or they both collectively paid $700?” He says something I don’t remember and then changes the subject.
Then I went to find Psych who I found immediately. I filled him in on the situation. He was really confused as he and I both remembered it was not his bootcamp but whatever, he goes back to talk to Heartwork, I am not here during this. After some time he comes back to talk to me, we have a brief discussion, then we head back to where Heartwork is. Now this new “Nathan Pua” guy is sitting here. He’s a bald guy, overweight to a somewhat noticeable degree, and wears some stylish glasses, a business suit.
This Nathan guy runs Psych’s business and I believe he is a junior instructor for Psych, although I could be wrong about this. I hadn’t really talked to this guy yet but he gave me a weird vibe. A good amount of the people at the convention said the same, and a few of them don’t like him and think he’s creepy. Whatever, not my job to judge.
While talking to me he paced his words strangely in an NLP kind of way, clearly trying to manipulate me, when I explain what he is saying and the incident that ensues, you will realize I was right. I sit there and he asks me to explain the situation so I do. Then he says that I’m not entitled to a refund at all, that’s fair. He offers me a $100 discount on a bootcamp that’s coming up, which was I believe $695? Now it would be $595. I don’t want anymore training if the quality of that night was any sort of barometer of how they run bootcamps now, and it is. Later on I find out the price of the bootcamp goes down to $395.
This “Nathan Pua” guy attempts to get me to buy the bootcamp even further, “Well this bootcamp could really take your game to the next level” he says. I refuse. He says “So your game is at the level you want it to be?” Etc. he continues this for a while, I get very annoyed. I tell him to leave. He looks clearly irritated when I say this. He obliges though and leaves, now it is me, Heartwork, and Psych. We talk briefly. It basically ends with them literally refusing me any compensation.
Later on I talk to one of my friends (Let’s call him Brendan) and who I found out put down a down payment for the bootcamp with Psych and Nathan. He is questioning whether he should take it as he has a family vacation coming up. I told him about my truthful experiences with the bootcamp and this whole incident. He decides not to take the bootcamp.
The next day or two Brendan and he says that they have been trying to get him to take the bootcamp since and they keep pressuring him, that sucks. I tell him to stick to whatever decision he feels is right. He says that he mentions his family vacation to them and that they don’t care at all. He’s apparently made up his mind about not taking the bootcamp.
Part 2. The neck grabbing and threatening to sue.
We were all attending a convention. Later on, during the last speech of the convention I look to my right, my buddy Brendan walks through the room with “Nathan Pua.” So, clearly something has happened, neither of them look happy. Brendan sits down near me but doesn’t make eye contact or talk with me, that’s strange.
I’m kind of waiting for the speeches to end because I am hosting my friends from DC who I promised to drive to the airport immediately after this last speech, it was a pretty cool weekend, I met a lot of cool people. I thoroughly enjoyed it, until this incident.
There is still a speech going on in front of me so I pay attention and watch the speech. Randomly out of nowhere I feel a hand literally GRAB my neck forcefully while I’m watching the speech, now mind you that I am sitting down in a crowded room with a speech going on onstage, I hear a voice talking as well, I look to my left and I see “Nathan Pua” grabbing my neck and talking down on me. He says “Listen you little fucking shit, if you keep spreading your fucking slander I’m going to fucking sue you for thousands of dollars!”
I say “Get your fucking hands off me!” He just looks at me, keeps his grasp on my neck while pushing my head with force so make my head jolt slightly. Then he walks off. Okay, now I am furious. There are speeches going on onstage so I decide not to ruin the footage during this occurrence. The speeches end and the camera turns off. I walk straight up to this “Nathan Pua” guy.
I can’t believe this fucking ass hole just grabbed my neck. I just looked at him and started screaming and cussing, I was fucking furious, this happened today. I basically started cussing at him really loud and yelling at him. He just looked stunned and I could tell he was scared, he said “You have issues man…” I kept cussing. He said “You need help…” At this point some other guys who were my friends dragged me out of there.
A lot of people saw this so I’m sure a lot of people think I have anger issues now, which is not far from the truth actually…
What the fuck man? Does this seriously fucking happen in the pick up community? I was a former student and he fucking grabs my neck in public? I’m fucking pissed off. I wish I could have taken a swing at this guy. What a fucking piece of shit.
I’m going to add a personal unedited message from the guy who was being pressured into a bootcamp and his experience on this so far. Judge for yourself. I was warning this guy about something like this happening, and guess what? It did happen. I just can’t fucking believe somebody is willing to pressure a client to the point of fucking walking them to an ATM machine to pull money out for them at that very moment, sickening.
And if you want to get in touch with this neck grabbing Nathan guy, just google “Nathan Pua”, his facebook is the first one that pops up. He runs lair events in NYC from what I’ve heard.
He did threaten to sue me and I am honestly very afraid of this happening. But I don’t want this happening to anybody else so I’m going to take the risk. From what I’ve heard from friends in the NYC community, he uses these kinds of scare tactics often. Can you even be sued for writing a bad review that is 100% true?
I’m going to end this with, Heartwork and Psych were not affiliated with this neck grabbing incident at all. They were both not there when it occurred, and Nathan made his own judgments to grab my neck and pull this stunt off. I think Heartwork could be an alright coach if he were to be sober the entire night. And Psych is a pretty cool guy who has good intentions and is probably a good coach who made the mistake of simply affiliating with a guy like Nathan.